Puissances en unités des persos

[bejiita]

Pikkoro sur Namek je vois pas comment tu peux le voir aussi faible en fait.

Quand il rencontre Nail, ce dernier lui dit clairement qu'il est très fort, je pense même qu'il sous entend que Pikkoro est plus fort que lui.
Je vois bien Pikkoro à environ 60k.

Pour Bejiita, quand il affronte Freeza dans sa première forme, Freeza est clairement surpris de sa puissance. En fait je crois bien que Bejiita avait dépassé les 530k de Freeza. Je le verrai bien aux alentour de 650k car Bejiita pensait que la transformation de Freeza n'augmenterai pas tant que ça sa puissance. Donc il pensait que la sienne suffirait juste mais que l'apport de Kulilin et Gohan lui permettrait de le battre.

[Antarka]

Pikkoro sur Namek je vois pas comment tu peux le voir aussi faible en fait.

Quand il rencontre Nail, ce dernier lui dit clairement qu'il est très fort, je pense même qu'il sous entend que Pikkoro est plus fort que lui.
Je vois bien Pikkoro à environ 60k.

Piccolo était environ à 3000 face à Nappa. Il est mort. Et s'est entrainé une semaine chez Kaio quoi. Je pense pas qu'il ait multiplié sa puissance en méditant 1 semaine à 10G.

Pour Bejiita, quand il affronte Freeza dans sa première forme, Freeza est clairement surpris de sa puissance. En fait je crois bien que Bejiita avait dépassé les 530k de Freeza. Je le verrai bien aux alentour de 650k car Bejiita pensait que la transformation de Freeza n'augmenterai pas tant que ça sa puissance. Donc il pensait que la sienne suffirait juste mais que l'apport de Kulilin et Gohan lui permettrait de le battre.

Dans le manga, Vegeta résiste à Freeza. Mais ce dernier a le sourire aux lèvres pendant que Vegeta halète à pleins poumons suite à ce petit bras de fer. Je pense que Vegeta est bcp moins fort que Freeza donc, et que ce dernier n'exploite pas la totalité de ses 530k en plus de ça.

Donc mettre Vegeta à plus de 120 000 (le niveau de Ginue) me semble déja beaucoup. 300k admettons mais c'est déja surréaliste. Le mettre plus fort que Freeza c'est n'importe quoi je trouve.

[Lenidem]

Pikkoro sur Namek je vois pas comment tu peux le voir aussi faible en fait.

Quand il rencontre Nail, ce dernier lui dit clairement qu'il est très fort, je pense même qu'il sous entend que Pikkoro est plus fort que lui.
Je vois bien Pikkoro à environ 60k.

Piccolo était environ à 3000 face à Nappa. Il est mort. Et s'est entrainé une semaine chez Kaio quoi. Je pense pas qu'il ait multiplié sa puissance en méditant 1 semaine à 10G.

On en a déjà parlé, mais je trouve moi aussi qu'un Piccolo moins fort que Nail, narrativement parlant, ça ne tient pas la route. Je sais, ce n'est pas "réaliste" qu'il ait multiplié sa puissance en seulement quelques jours, mais un Piccolo moins fort que Krilin à un instant t, ça me paraît trop gros. Ici, j'appliquerais la rule of cool dont se sont servi les terriens pour progresser comme des dingues avant l'arrivée des sayiens - oui parce qu'un Krilin qui bute des Raditz au petit déj' alors que celui-ci gérait tranquille Piccolo et Gokû ensemble moins d'un an plus tôt, rien à faire, ça ne passe pas pour moi. Ou pour prendre un exemple plus piccoloesque, quand celui-ci rattrape les super saiyens à l'arrivée des cyborgs, alors que même en normal ils avaient plusieurs longueurs d'avance sur lui : Piccolo affirme que la puissance de Gokû "dépasse son imagination" avant qu'il ne devienne super saiyen, peut-être avant qu'il n'utilise le kaïoken... et malgré ça, il devient presque aussi fort que lui en super saiyen. C'est logiquement impossible, mais il l'a fait. Ben même chose chez Kaïo.

[bejiita]

Pour Bejiita, quand il affronte Freeza dans sa première forme, Freeza est clairement surpris de sa puissance. En fait je crois bien que Bejiita avait dépassé les 530k de Freeza. Je le verrai bien aux alentour de 650k car Bejiita pensait que la transformation de Freeza n'augmenterai pas tant que ça sa puissance. Donc il pensait que la sienne suffirait juste mais que l'apport de Kulilin et Gohan lui permettrait de le battre.

Dans le manga, Vegeta résiste à Freeza. Mais ce dernier a le sourire aux lèvres pendant que Vegeta halète à pleins poumons suite à ce petit bras de fer. Je pense que Vegeta est bcp moins fort que Freeza donc, et que ce dernier n'exploite pas la totalité de ses 530k en plus de ça.

Donc mettre Vegeta à plus de 120 000 (le niveau de Ginue) me semble déja beaucoup. 300k admettons mais c'est déja surréaliste. Le mettre plus fort que Freeza c'est n'importe quoi je trouve.

Quand Gokû déploie son Kaiôken face à Ginue, les scouter nouvel génération montent à 180k sans exploser, et celui de Freeza explose donc déjà sa puissance va bien au delà.

A la rigueur qu'il ne soit pas plus fort que Freeza ne me dérange pas même si je pense que Bejiita craint la puissance de Freeza transformé et veut donc l'immortalité.
Si même Kulilin pense pouvoir battre Freeza sous sa première forme alors Bejiita doit pas être très loin.

[D@ny]

Pour parler un peu d'un sujet nouveau, j'ai vu un membre qui a fait un travail de recherche monstrueux pour relier les puissances en unités des persos avec les chiffres 6, 10 et 15. Et je partage ne serait-ce que pour son travail de recherche dont je n'aurais pas eu le courage de faire.

Spoiler

[spoiler]

Ignore the above graph for now. I will explain how I got this.

Alright guys, I know you have seen several attempts at power scaling, but I promise you this one is different. We all know that official power levels stopped at the end of the Freeza saga in DBZ. Since then, there have been a lot of rumors and speculation circulating all over the internet mixed with opinions. Most people have given up on power scaling and say that the series is too inconsistent and in a mess. Today, I will attempt to see if we can use logic and mathematics to derive a scaling method that satisfies all information and feats from official sources, primarily from the manga, anime and Toriyama himself. Other sources will include the Daizenshuus, Databooks, Toei and other writers or authors. We will also use the anime and movies where needed but manga will always take precedence. There may also be some head canon. I don’t claim this to be the most accurate power scale, but just a different approach to power scaling that you may have not seen before that uses math to satisfy information we know from official sources. Hence, please keep an open mind!

Now, without further ado, let us begin!

After 17 years, in August 2014, the first DB movie was announced – Battle of the Gods (BoG), by Akira Toriyama himself! During that time, there was an interview with Toriyama:

Spoiler

Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... -toriyama/

Wait! In this interview, Toriyama gave us the first real indication of power scaling for Dragon Ball Super, stating that Goku is a 6, Beerus is a 10, and Whis is a 15. Now of course, this scaling is quite outdated and only represents where Goku was at during BoG. Goku has been growing constantly since BoG. He has fought Golden Freeza, trained in the Room of Spirit and Time (ROSAT) for 3 days, trained with Whis, fought Hit, fought Zamasu, and discovered Ultra Instinct. He’s definitely not a 6 in SSG anymore. However, we can still keep Beerus and Whis scales since they haven’t changed and try to derive where Goku is now. Most of you might be skeptic, but stick with me here till the end before you make up your mind.

However, today, I will show you the logarithmic scale approach. Logarithms are used when the numbers become too big (like power levels). They are used today to measure earthquakes, pH, sound loudness (decibels), and light intensity.

Just to be clear, a 1-point difference in a log scale means 10x stronger, a 0.1 difference is 1.26x stronger, 0.2 difference is 1.58x stronger, 0.3 difference is 2x stronger, a 0.4 difference is 2.5x stronger, a 0.5 difference is 3.16x ~ 3x stronger, a 0.6 difference is 3.98x ~4x stronger, a a 0.7 difference is 5x stronger, 0.8 increase is 6.3x ~6x stronger, 0.9 increase is 7.94x ~ 8x stronger.

Power scaling communities commonly use percentage differences based on official power levels. During the Freeza saga, SSJ Goku was 150 million while Freeza was 120 million. The percentage gap here is 25% i.e. SSJ Goku is 1.25 times stronger than Freeza during the Freeza Saga. Similarly, a difference of 0.1 on the log scale is 25%.

Ok, we shall take the inverse log of each scale value:
Goku (SSG) = 10[sup]^6[/sup] --> 1,000,000 or 1 million
Beerus = 10[sup]^10[/sup] --> 10,000,000,000 or 10 billion
Whis = 10[sup]^15[/sup] --> 1 quadrillion

Remember these aren’t power levels. These are numbers converted using the inverse log scale. It is these numbers that we can use our multipliers before converting back to log scale.

Let’s start with SSB Goku. The real question is how strong has Goku become since BoG to Post-Zamasu? Not a lot of time passed between BoG and RoF. In that time, Goku trained with Whis who helped him control his new god ki and combine it with SSJ to reach SSB. His base strength did increase, but not by much between BoG and RoF. Let's say 1.25x or 25% increase. The main increase in power is SSB. A lot of people believe SSB to be the power of SSJ with SSG and that is correct. However, we can't multiply by 50 to get SSB! Why not? Because the 50x multiplier is to get from base to SSJ1 not from SSG to SSB! These multipliers are official and were released in the Super Exciting Guide (SEG). We have to do a little bit more research to find the relationship between SSG and SSB!

Spoiler

Source: Chapter 13, page 20

Here, Whis explains that due to stamina issues, Vegeta was not able to exert 10% of SSB and because of that, he lost. He says that SSG is stronger than 10% of SSB. This means that SSG>10% SSB but for simplification, we can state SSB~10xSSG. There you go! Now we have an official multiplier directly from the manga. Note that in order for the multiplier to be 50x, SSG > 2% SSB and not anything higher than 2%.

So, SSB Goku (RoF) = 10 x SSG x 1.25 = 10 x 10[sup]^6[/sup] x 1.25 = 10[sup]^7[/sup] x 1.25. Then the log ( 10[sup]^7[/sup] x 1.25) = 7.1

Hence, SSB Goku (RoF) would be around a 7.1, about 10 times stronger than SSG. After RoF, Goku trained in the ROSAT for 3 days (real time), so that’s 3 years of training! Then, he fought Hit, Black, and Jiren. Did he get zenkais for all? The truth is that Goku has become too strong and after a point, you reach saturation point for zenkais. This means it becomes harder and harder to get stronger the stronger you get, which makes sense (see graph below). For example, in Namek, Goku went from 90,000 to 3 million in his base alone due to zenkai boost. He can still get stronger through traditional training.

Spoiler

In Chapter 20 of Dragon Ball Super, Trunks states that Goku and Vegeta have both pushed their bodies to their limits, so it’s not that easy to get zenkai boosts anymore.

Spoiler

Yet Black was able to still receive zenkai boosts while in Goku’s body. Why? Black himself stated in Chapter 20 that when he took Goku’s body, he was not able to access all of its power. He wasn’t even able to go SSJ. This is nothing new. Ginyu had the same problem back in the Freeza saga. Apparently, Black was able to discover a shortcut to quickly gaining access to the full power of Goku’s body – zenkai boosts. Each time Black healed himself from the brink of death, the healing regenerated new cells that used Zamasu’s own ki. This allowed Zamasu to make Goku’s body more his own. It’s actually the reason why he changed into Super Saiyan Rosé instead of Blue. Rosé is just his own unique god ki combined in a saiyan’s body. The anime incorrectly showed how zenkai boosts work. In the anime, Black got stronger after taking damage but zenkai doesn’t work like that. Zenkais give strength after being healed from the brink of death. Hell, the anime even showed SSB Vegeta LOSING to Base Black! That whole scene where Vegeta rofl stomps Black was actually portrayed in the manga as Vegeta and Black’s FIRST encounter. Then, Vegeta trained in the ROSAT and learned to switch between SSG and SSB to beat him the second time. In fact, one of the primary reasons Black went to a parallel timeline was not just to find a timeline without Beerus but to find himself so that he can keep getting healed over and over, to get stronger.

Spoiler

Source: Chapter 20, DBS Manga

Now that we understand how difficult it is to get stronger, a 1.25x from BoG to RoF, 2x from RoF to U6 arc, and a 4x from U6 arc to Post-Zamasu is very reasonable. This is 1.25x 2x 4x = 10x from BoG to Post-Zamasu. Then a 4x boost Post-ToP:

SSG Goku (BoG) = 6 and SSB Goku (RoF) = 7.1
SSG Goku (Post-ToP) = Log(10[sup]^6[/sup] x 10 x 4) = 7.6
SSB Goku (Post-ToP) = Log (10[sup]^7[/sup] x 10 x 4) = 8.6

Doesn’t seem like a lot right? Remember this is a log scale. So the real difference is between a 7 and a 8 is 10x!

Wait! I thought Goku absorbed the power of a SSG into his base. Shouldn’t his base now be a 7?
So this is the most confusing part. Toriyama stated in his interview that Goku absorbed the power of SSG. In the anime and movie, we see that SSJ Goku in space was able to spar with Beerus even without SSG. However, Piccolo could sense his ki. To prevent Earth's destruction, he dug deep into his body and added a fraction (~1/10) of the god ki he had as SSG into his SSJ form. Goku has only transformed into SSG for the first time but he has "felt" it but has no idea how to use it yet. It is not until after he trains with Whis that he learns to control this god ki and utilize 100% of that god ki into his SSJ form. This then creates SSB. Hence, the temporary SSJ form that Goku uses against Beerus in space is essentially an SSJ with some god ki or an incomplete SSB. This is my own headcannon to explain the anime scene. It's not needed for manga.

Spoiler

Source: Episode 13, 19:30-19:50

Kaioken is easy for us to calculate as it is a simple multiplier that we know:

SSB Goku + Kaioken x 10 = Log (10[sup]^8.6[/sup] x 10) = 9.6
MSSB = SSB Goku + Kaioken x 20 = Log (10[sup]^8.6[/sup] x 20) = 9.9

Still lower than Beerus who is a 10.

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Super Saiyan God multiplier

Ok, if you’ve come this far, you’re ready for the multiplier for SSG!

Goku could not even touch Beerus as SSJ3 and stated that even with fusion, he would have no chance against Beerus.
So SSG Goku > SSJ3 Vegito by logic.
In addition, the Daizenshuu 7, Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku

I will assume that this statement refers to the point in time when Vegito made his appearance and not the Vegito at the end of DBZ. Hence:

SSJ Vegito > Buuhan > Base Vegito > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ Gotenks ~ SSJ3 Goku

Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku (Daizenshuu 7)
Base Vegito > Buutenks > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku
Base Vegito > 1.5x Buutenks > 1.25x Ultimate Gohan > 1.3x SSJ3 Gotenks > 8x SSJ3 Goku
Base Vegito > 1.5x 1.25x 1.3x 8x SSJ3 Goku
Base Vegito > 19.5x SSJ3 Goku
Base Vegito ~ 20x SSJ3 Goku

SSG Goku (BoG)> SSJ3 Vegito (BoG)
SSG > 1.5x SSJ3 Vegito
SSG > 1.5x 400x 20x SSJ3 Goku
SSG > 4.8 million x Base Goku
SSG ~ 5 million x Base Goku

It seems very large, but this is the only way to explain Goku's massive increase in power that eclipses any of his previous forms including fusion to stand a chance against Beerus. This is also the only way to meet the conditions that SSG Goku > SSJ3 Vegito.

Using this, we can now reverse engineer the log scale for the other forms of Goku (Post-Zamasu)!

Base Goku = SSG / 5E6 = Log (10^7.6/(5 x 10^6) ) = 0.9
SSJ Goku = 50 x Base Goku = Log (50 x 10^0.9) = 2.6
SSJ2 Goku = 2 x SSJ Goku = Log (2 x 10^2.6) = 2.9
SSJ3 Goku = 4 x SSJ2 Goku = Log (4 x 10^2.9) = 3.5
SSG Goku = 7.6 (derived above)
SSB Goku = 8.6 (derived above)

Ok, so what if Goku uses god ki in his base form? This is the famous "Saiyan beyond God" that was used in BoG.

To derive this, we need to first calculate Base Goku (BoG):

Base Goku (BoG) = SSG Goku / SSG multiplier = Log (10^6/5E6) = -0.7. (It's negative because it's so weak in a log scale that is meant for higher numbers.)

Now let's add 10% God ki:

Base Goku (Goku (BoG) +10% God Ki) = Log [10^-0.7 + 10% x 10^6] = 5.0 < SSG Goku (6.0)

Remember that space scene where SSJ Goku fought Beerus and was actually doing as good even without SSG? How can that be if he wasn't in SSG anymore? Piccolo sensed his ki so he couldn't have been using god ki right? Let's add 10% god ki to SSJ:

SSJ Goku (BoG) = 50x Base Goku = Log (50x 10^-0.7) = 1.0.
SSJ Goku (BoG + 10% God Ki) = Log (SSJ Goku (BoG) x 10% SSG Goku (BoG) ) = Log (10^1 x 10% x 10^6) = 6. (Same as SSG Goku which is why he could fight Beerus without SSG!)

The 10% added God ki to base is my own headcannon to explain the SSJ Goku vs Beerus space scene and other instances of Goku in base in the anime. I primarily use the manga not the anime, so this headcannon is ONLY for the anime. As Goku absorbed SSG for the first time, he felt what it was like to use god ki but he couldn't utilize all of it, so he mixed some god ki with mortal ki. Essentially, this form used in space against Beerus was an incomplete SSB form. As he trained with Whis, he learned to infuse 100% of god ki into his SSJ form to make SSB.
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Potara Fusion

Ok, let’s do Potara Fusion now. We have all heard what Vados said in Episode 114,

the fusion creates a new body and personality greater than the sum of the two individuals and increases their power by tens of times.

Now before we jump the gun, let’s really analyze this. What is meant by “tens” of times? Tens is lower than “hundreds” of times. Tens is also plural so it does not mean 10. It means 20, 30, 40…. up to 90 but not 100. Therefore, the maximum multiplier can be 90. If we take Vados’s words literally, it means:

Potara Fusion = (A + B) x C where C = 10-90.

Let me tell you why this doesn’t make sense. In the Buu saga, we were first introduced to Potara fusion. Vegito in his base form was much stronger than SSJ3 Goku (Daizenshuu 7). If that is true, then

Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku
(Goku + Vegeta)x C > 400x Goku
(Goku + Goku)x C > 400x Goku
2x Goku xC > 400x Goku
C > 200

What does this mean? It means that in order for Vegito in his base to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku, C has to be a value greater than 200! If we went by Vados, C can only be 10-90!

Spoiler

Furthermore, before I forget, in the SEG, it stated that the Fusion formula was AxB which also does not make sense. Multiplying together is essentially squaring Goku’s base power level which would give an enormous power rivaling even Whis. In statistics, the cross doesn't have to mean multiplication but can also mean "by" which relates two variables. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplication_sign

Now let's go back to the originally derived relationship between Base Vegito and SSJ3 Goku:

Base Vegito = 20x SSJ3 Goku
(A+B)xC = 8000x Goku
(Goku+Goku) x C = 8000x Goku
2xC = 8000
C = 4000
Potara Fusion = (A+B) x C where C=4000.

SSB Vegito = Log[(10^8.6 + 10^8.6/1.5) x 4000 ]= 12.4
Therefore, SSB Vegito = 12.4 > Beerus = 10

This makes sense because in the manga, Chapter 23, page 43, Shin states that SSB Vegito surpasses Beerus. Note that this is Post-ToP so he already has a 1.6 boost. At this point though, post-ToP, he's well beyond Beerus.

Spoiler

We can trust Shin since he can sense god ki and has lived for more than 5 million years.

Now that we have the multiplier for SSG, it is easy to derive the log scales for Vegito as well:

SSG Vegito = SSB Vegito / 10 = Log[10[sup]^12.4[/sup] / 10 ]= 11.4
Base Vegito = SSG Vegito / 5E6 = Log[10^11.4/5E6] = 4.7
Yay, this validates that Base Vegito (4.7) > SSJ3 Goku (3.5) ! Makes sense!

SSJ Vegito = 50 x Base Vegito = Log [50 x 10^4.7 ] = 6.4
SSJ2 Vegito = 2 x SSJ Vegito = Log [ 2 x 10^6.4 ] = 6.7
SSJ3 Vegito = 4 x SSJ2 Vegito = Log [ 4 x 10^6.7 ] = 7.3

And this validates that SSG Goku (7.6) > SSJ3 Vegito (7.3)!
The difference is 0.3 in log scale which is a 2x difference. That means SSG Goku is 2x stronger than SSJ3 Vegito. If you look at official power level gaps between fighters in DBZ, you'll find that 25% is the most common power gap. For example, SSJ Goku (Namek)=150 million while Freeza (Namek)=120 million. This is 25% power gap exactly, so a 2x power gap between SSG and SSJ3 Vegito is reasonable.

Just for fun,
SSB Vegito + Kaioken x 10 = Log [ 10 x 10^12.4] = 13.4
MSSB = SSB Vegito + Kaioken x 20 = Log [ 20 x 10^12.4 ] = 13.7

Still below Whis who is at 15. Makes sense!

Another fusion we can calculate really easy now is Zamasu! If we take SSR Black = SSB Goku (Post-Zamasu), then SSR Black = 8. Then, if we take SSJ2 Goku (U6 arc) >= 1.25x Zamasu then Zamasu = 2.1

For Vegito, we used C=4000. The multiplier will be different for different people. We know that the closer the physical characteristics and battle power between the fusees, the stronger the fusion. Zamasu and Black (Goku's body) have completely different bodies, hell they are different races. They have drastically different battle powers too. Yes, the soul of Zamasu is the same but that doesn't matter. The power gap is immense and hence, the multiplier will be significantly lower. In addition, in the manga, MSSB Goku fought Merged Zamasu evenly. In the DBZ Manga, Goku himself thought that fusing with someone significantly weaker like Mr. Satan would make the resulting fusion weaker:

Spoiler

Toriyama himself confirmed that similar size and power is all that is needed. Factors like "personality" and "rival boost" were made-up things by fans who misinterpreted Elder Kai's words in the original DBZ manga. In fact, what the Elder Kai meant was that Goku and Vegeta live to outdo each other which helps them sustain similar battle powers.

Spoiler

Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... uu-arc-04/


Source: Ch. 503 of DBZ manga

So we'll use a C=20
Merged Zamasu = (Zamasu+SSR Black)*20
Merged Zamasu = log [(10^2.1 + 10^8)*20] = 9.3 = MSSB Goku (Pre-ToP)

Since we are on the subject of Zamasu, might as well do Future Trunks! We have clearly seen SSJ2 Future Trunks in Chapter 15 of the manga, spar equally with SSJ3 Goku.

Spoiler

Future Trunks ~ 1.25x SSJ3 Goku = 3.2 (Goku had to use god ki in the manga to knock Trunks out)

This would make him equal to Android 17 and Ultimate Gohan post-ToP.

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Since we have derived Potara Fusion, let us derive Fusion Dance!

Before I start, I should point out that Gogeta is not canon and was a character introduced by Toei in Movie 12. Gogeta re-appeared in GT, also created by Toei. Hence, to scale Gogeta, we are allowed to use sources by Toei, since he was literally created by them.

Here are the GT Perfect Files:

Spoiler

The above is from GT Perfect Files Volume 2. The green box above translates to:
“This is the fusion of Super Saiyan 4 Goku and Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta. The strongest warrior in the entire Universe, and probably in every dimension!! It's Fusion of unprecedented power that lasts 30 minutes, however, it's only weakness is that lasts 10 minutes due to the Super Saiyan 4 state. His power is perhaps many tens of times stronger than a single Super Saiyan 4.”

Again, in GT Perfect Files Volume 2:

Spoiler

Again, the “tens” of times is stated which was said by Vados before. It’s ambiguous but “decina” means ten in Italian and that is clear. This means that SSJ4 Gogeta=tensxSSJ4 Goku. If this is true, then the we can derive the formula for Fusion Dance as follows:

SSJ4 Gogeta = (A+B)xC = (tens)xSSJ4 Goku
If A and B represent SSJ4 Goku and SSJ4 Vegeta where A~B, then:
SSJ4 Gogeta = (SSJ4 Goku + SSJ4 Vegeta) x C where C=10-90
SSJ4 Gogeta = (SSJ4 Goku + SSJ4 Goku) x (10-90)
SSJ4 Gogeta = 2 x SSJ4 Goku x (10-90)
SSJ4 Gogeta = (20-180) x SSJ4 Goku

As discussed above, this range of C depends on the accuracy of the Fusion Dance as well as how similar the battle power and physical characteristics are! If you perform the dance wrong, then C can be between 0-1, which makes their power LOWER than the sum of their individual battle strength. If you touch with a fist and finger, you get a Fat version while if you don't touch with the fingers, you get an old skinny version of the Fusion that is weaker than the fat one. Doing the dance correctly, but not having similar battle power or physical characteristics, can make C=10-90. Goku and Vegeta, while both Saiyans with similar battle power, still have differences. A perfect fusion would be one where the fusees are twins which would give a C=90. In this case, we can give a C=50 for Gogeta. A C=50 would make Gogeta = 100xGoku/Vegeta. Gogeta also states 100x Big Bang Kamehameha so this make sense!

Spoiler

So, let’s do this:
SSB Gogeta = 2 x SSB Goku x 50 = Log [ 100 x 10[sup]^8.6[/sup] ] = 10.6
SSB Gogeta + Kaioken x 10 = Log [ 10 x 10[sup]^10.6[/sup] ] = 11.6
SSB Gogeta + Kaioken x 20 = Log [ 20 x 10[sup]^10[/sup] ] = 11.9

SSB Gogeta = 10.2 < SSB Vegito = 12.1. Makes sense!
Potara Fusion is superior to Fusion Dance confirmed mathematically!

SSJ Gogeta = 100x Base x50 = 5000x Base = 12.5x SSJ3 Goku
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Since we are on the subject of GT, let's do SSJ4. The SSJ4 is a transformation from Golden Oozaru not from SSJ3. The Golden Oozaru is implied to be an Oozaru that has just turned Super Saiyan, and hence the fur has become yellow. Thus,

Super Oozaru = 50x Oozaru = 500x Base
Super Oozaru 2 = 2x Super Oozaru = 1000x Base
Super Oozaru 3 = 4x Super Oozaru 2 = 4000x Base

So "Golden Oozaru" is not a fixed multiplier and is based on what state of SSJ is being used while in Golden Oozaru. The only way to determine this is by the hair but since the hair doesn't change much between SSJ1 and SSJ2, it can't be distinguished that easily.

According to the GT Perfect Files, Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta > SSJ4 Goku. It is not until Goku absorbs the energies of Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Pan that he is able to overpower Super Oozaru Baby Vegeta. Since Oozaru is a 10x multiplier, it means that the gap between SSJ4 Goku and Super Baby cannot have been more than 10x. The question is then how strong was Golden Oozaru Goku? Was he a regular SSJ, SSJ2, or SSJ3 in Golden Oozaru? Several people have theorized that Goku was a SSJ3, which would make the multiplier 400x10=4000x. However, based on the recent design of Golden Oozaru Cumber and previous designs of Golden Oozaru including Baby, Broly, and Gogeta, one thing that is consistent is the hair. The hair remains the same even in Oozaru. Hence, Goku could not be in SSJ3 because he doesn't have the long hair while in Oozaru. However, as the fight between Golden Oozaru Goku and Super Baby progressed, Goku's ki continues to rise. The only way to make sense of this is that, Goku did surpass SSJ2 while in Golden Oozaru and approached but did not reach SSJ3 as he could not control his power.

Adult Goku (53 years old) ~ Kid Goku (12 years old) - GT Perfect Files state that they are equal in power except stamina issues.
Adult Goku ~ 2x Vegeta

Baby Vegeta = 16x Vegeta ~ 8x Kid Goku
SSJ Baby Vegeta = 50x Baby Vegeta ~ 800x Vegeta ~ SSJ3 Kid Goku ~ 400x Kid Goku

Spoiler

Super Baby (Strongest Form 1) ~ 2x SSJ Baby Vegeta (After absorbing energies of Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Bulla)

Spoiler

Super Baby (Strongest Form 2) ~ 4x Strongest Form 1 (After absorbing the energies of all people on Earth) ~ 3200x Kid Goku < Golden Oozaru Goku < SSJ4 Goku = 4000x Kid Goku

Spoiler

Golden Oozaru Goku = 500x to 4000x Kid Goku

Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta = 10x Strongest Form 2 ~ 4000x Baby Vegeta ~ 32,000x Kid Goku > SSJ4 Goku ~ 4000x Kid Goku
Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta ~ 8000x Vegeta ~ 32,000x Kid Goku < Full-Powered SSJ4 Goku ~ 40,000x Kid Goku

Hence, to make sense of this, I will say that:

SSJ4 = Condensed Golden Oozaru = 8x Super Oozaru = 4000x Base (Implied that Goku added the power of SSJ3 into Oozaru.)
Full-Powered SSJ4 Goku = 10x SSJ4 = 40,000x Kid Goku (After absorbing energies of Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Pan)

The reason that Goku got a 10x multiplier when absorbing Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Pan's energies versus Baby Vegeta who only got a 2x multiplier when absorbing the energies of Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Bulla's energies is because when Baby Vegeta received their energies, none of them were Super Saiyan. This may be due to the fact that Gohan, Goten, and Trunks were already depleted of their energies after fighting with Goku and Uub and/or that their full power could not be drawn out without Baby inside their bodies. The egg inside their minds was not enough.

Goku: Xeno is a Goku summoned by Chronoa from Trunks: Xeno's memories. Trunks: Xeno is a Future Trunks from Timeline 6 that never fought Zamasu or Dabura. This occurs in Age 850. GT ends in Age 790 when Kid Goku disappears with Shenron. Thus 850-790 = 60 years. I will take that Chronoa summoned Goku 60 years after the end of the Evil Shenron Saga in GT. To estimate Goku: Xeno, we need to first calculate how strong he was at the start of GT.

First, Kid Goku was shown to fight Rilldo who was stated to be stronger than Kid Buu. Since SSJ3 Goku (Buu Saga) ~ Kid Buu, then Base Kid Goku > Rilldo > SSJ3 Goku (Buu Saga). However, that's after Goku does 10 years of training by himself following the defeat of Kid Buu and then 5 more years of training with Uub in the ROSAT. Hence, let's say Goku got 70% stronger each year for 10 years and 80% stronger for 5 years training with Uub. So 1.7^10 x 1.8^5. Now let's say that after Goku's battle with Baby Vegeta, Super 17, and Evil Shenrons, he received a 50% (1.5x) boost from each one. Then, we can give him a 10% increase for the remaining 60 years, so 1.10^60 to get Goku: Xeno.

Kid Goku (GT) = 1.7^10 x 1.8^5 x 1.5^3 = Log (1.7^10 x 1.8^5 x 1.5^3 x 10^(-1.7) ) = 2.4
Goku: Xeno (60 years after GT) = Log (Kid Goku (GT) x 1.1^60) = 4.9
SSJ4 Goku: Xeno = 4000x Goku: Xeno = Log (4000x 10^4.9) = 8.5 < SSB Goku Post-ToP (8.6) by 25%
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Back to DBS:

We can also estimate Hit’s power to be equivalent to a SSB Goku (Pre-Zamasu) + Kaioken x10:

Hit = 8.1. Equal to SSB Goku (Post-ToP).

As for Jiren, Whis said that he is the mortal that surpasses a Hakaishin out of all 12 universes, even the four that were excluded.

Hence, Jiren (ToP) = 13. Jiren (post-ToP) = 13.1. (1.25x stronger)

It might seem like a lot but given what Jiren is capable of - even going head-to-toe with mastered UI Goku, I don't think it's too wild at all. The next on the list is Ultra Instinct Goku. If we use the same percentage gap between Goku and Freeza in their first battle on Namek (150 million vs 120 million), it's 1.25. This means if we we say that UI Goku is 25% stronger than full power Jiren, then that would make:

Ultra Instinct Goku = 13.2 (1.6x Jiren)
Ultra Instinct Goku = 13.7 (4x Post-ToP) > BSSJ Broly (13.2)

Next up, Android 17. In Chapter 31 of the DBS manga, Android 17 was shown to be sparring with SSJ3 Goku evenly. Much different than the anime that portrayed SSB Goku vs 17. The scaling makes much more sense in the manga. Hence, we shall assign Android 17 the same log scale as SSJ3 Goku.

Spoiler

Android 17 = 3.2

Furthermore, Toshio commented on his twitter that Gohan = 17>Frost>Piccolo.

Spoiler

Ultimate Gohan = 3.2 (Same log scale as Android 17 and SSJ3 Goku)
Frost=2.4 (1.25x weaker than SSJ Goku (Post-Zamasu))
Piccolo=2.3 (1.25x weaker than Frost)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ultimate Gohan multiplier

We know from the Buu saga that Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Goku and that SSJ3=400xbase. Hence, for simple calculation, the multiplier for Ultimate was selected to be 500, higher than the 400 multiplier for SSJ3.

Gohan base (ToP) = 10^4.1/500 = 10^2.1/5. Log (1/5)+2.1=1.4 (~Goku's base)

Note that Gohan has trained and become a lot stronger in Super, so the Ultimate state may not even be a multiplier anymore. Similar to training in higher grades of SSJ2 without changing base power level, Ultimate can also be trained further.

Let's do Toppo next. We've seen him fight SSB Goku as a preliminary match for the Tournament of Power. In Chapter 39, Toppo wins but said that if he didn't counter Goku's punch, he would've won, implying that Goku is stronger. In the anime, SSB Goku beats Toppo but was implied that Toppo wasn't using his full power after which Goku uses Kaioken and then the match is stopped by the Dai Shinkan. We've also seen Toppo fight SSB Vegeta pretty evenly. Recently, we've seen Toppo commit to a Hakaishin and easily defeat Golden Freeza (8) and Android 17 (4.1) yet he lost to SSBE Vegeta (9.5). According to this, he has to be lower than Beerus (10). He just became a Hakaishin, so you can't expect him to reach the same level as other Hakaishin who have been at that level for millions of years. Yes, each Hakaishin is different and in the manga, Beerus, Quietela and Belmoud seem to be the strongest but with the information we have, I will give him a 9.5.

Spoiler

Hakaishin Toppo = 9.5 ~ SSBE Vegeta (9.5)

Kefla is next, but to get her, we have to calculate Kale. According to Chapter 37-38 DBS Manga, Golden Freeza said that her strikes hurt more than SSJ Caulifla's, confirming that Base Kale > SSJ Caulifla. When she went BSSJ, she easily overpowered Golden Freeza and SSB Goku.

Hence, if we take Base Kale > 1.25x SSJ2 Goku > SSJ Goku > 1.25x SSJ Caulifla > 1.25x SSJ Cabba

Then Base Kale = log ( 10^3.4 x1.25x1.6) = 3.7 ~ 1.25x SSJ2 Goku
SSJ Kale = log (10^3.7 x 50) = 5.4
BSSJ Kale = SSJ Kale x 1000 = log (10^5.4 x 1000) = 8.4 > SSB Goku & Golden Freeza

Then Base Kefla = log [ 4000x (10^1.5+10^3.7) ] = 7.3 > SSG Goku (7.6)
SSJ Kefla = Base Kefla x 50 = log (10^7.3 x 50) = 9.0 > SSB Goku (8.6)
BSSJ Kefla = SSJ Kefla x 1000 = log (10^9.0 x 1000) = 12.0 < SSB Vegito (12.4)

This makes Base Kefla > SSG Goku while in the anime, this wasn't the case. In the manga, Base Kefla wasn't ever shown.

Kale is very similar to Broly. In the trailer, we see that Base Broly with his collar overpowers SSJ Vegeta, already stating that Base Broly with collar > SSJ Vegeta. Later, Base Broly without his collar is seen fighting SSB Goku. This implies that Base Broly without collar > SSG Goku. Then Broly transforms further, implying that SSB Goku did push him to transform further.

Base Broly (with collar) = 4.0 > 2x Base Kale (3.7)
Base Broly (without collar) = 30000x Base Broly (with collar) = 8.5 < SSB Goku (8.6)
SSJ Broly = log(10^7.5 x 50) = 10.2 > SSB Goku (8.6)
BSSJ Broly = log(10^9.2 x 1000) = 13.2 > Jiren (13.1) < Ultra Instinct Goku (13.8)

Based on the above calculations, the collar was restraining Broly's power by a factor of 30000.

Well, that's it!

Spoiler

My raw data and calculations: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1wr2ll16h4rss ... .xlsx?dl=0

This is a graph of characters we know and have been revealed in Dragon Ball Super. I didn’t put characters like Gogeta since it’s not canon, even though Gogeta can be scaled. The anime does a lot of fan service and hence, until the manga catches up to the anime, characters like Kefla and Kale are based on educated guesses. Characters like Android 18 who hasn’t gotten any stronger since the Cell saga are too weak based on this log scale and would be below 1 and may even be negative.

Lastly, the point of this was to use math to see if there was a solution that meets all conditions. Sometimes there is no solution and that's when you have a plot hole.

---------------------------------END OF PART 1-------------------------------------------------------------

Part 2 is theoretical and based on head canon which is why I separated them into two parts. There will be less criticism for part 1 than for part 2. I won't use power levels, but only explanations to show comparisons between characters and rank them from strongest to weakest in different arcs.
----------------------------------PART 2 BEGINS---------------------------------------------------------

Super Saiyan Grades, Multipliers and Completed SSB

Spoiler

Since Super Saiyan was first achieved, we have seen different grades of Super Saiyan during the Cell saga. This includes grade 2 or Ascended SSJ (ASSJ) by Vegeta after he first came out of the Room of Spirit and Time with Trunks to fight Cell. Next was grade 3 or Ultra SSJ (USSJ), the form Trunks used which greatly increased his power at the expense of speed. In the DBS anime, Trunks even learned to trick Vegeta by using this form to bait him and then switch back to SSJ2. The Super Saiyan Rage form he used against Zamasu seemed to be a combination of grade 3 and SSJ2. Last was grade 4 or Fully powered SSJ (FPSSJ) when Goku and Gohan were able to maintain a SSJ for an entire day doing normal activities like taking a bath. Goku released his full power against Perfect Cell, showing to everyone how much stronger he has gotten. These grades are not fan-made but were written in an official source for the Trunks anime comics translated by Herms: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22411

-----------------DB----------------------
Oozaru = 10x Base

-----------------DBZ---------------------
Kaioken x N = Nx Base where N=2-20 (N>20 is possible but never shown)
SSJ Grade 1 = 50x Base (power, speed, stamina balanced but slight agitated state and stamina drain for all newly transformed SSJs)
SSJ Grade 2 (ASSJ) = 60x Base (Slight increase in power and speed, abandoned due to high energy consumption and stamina drain)
SSJ Grade 3 (USSJ) = 10x SSJ (Lots of power, Increased muscle mass lowers speed by a lot, very high energy consumption and stamina drain)
SSJ Grade 4 (FPSSJ) = 50x Base (power, speed, and stamina perfectly balanced)

Alternatively, some people have scaled SSJ Grade 3 = 75x Base if you don't agree with "Dragon Ball Legend of Manga" released in 2007 by Shueisha with original language Japanese which states 10x SSJ. It was translated to Spanish and French.
Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38328 https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/liNSB ... h768-rw-no

SSJ2 (SSJ Grade 5) = 2x SSJ
SSJ2 Grade 2 = 4x SSJ
SSJ2 Grade 3 = 8x SSJ ~ SSJ3 (Future Trunks and Vegeta have both shown to surpass SSJ3)
SSJ2 Grade 4 (SS Rage) = 10x SSJ2 (anime only, higher grade of SSJ2, exclusive to Future Trunks.)

SSJ3 = 4x SSJ2 (Lots of power but lots of stamina drain)

Fusion Dance = (A+B) x C where C = 10-90 based on similarities between fusees (physical characteristics and battle power)
C = 0 - 1 when dance is performed incorrectly.
Potara Fusion = (A+B) x C where C = 1-4000 based on similarities between fusees (physical characteristics and battle power)
Ex. Fusing with Farmer with shotgun with battle power = 5, will not automatically give C = 10 for free when the difference in power is more than millions.

Ultimate = 500x Base (Ultimate is just unlocking all latent potential at that point in a person. So it doesn't need to have a fixed multiplier necessarily but we quantified it anyways.)

-----------------DBS---------------------
SSG (Base + 100% God ki) = 5,000,000x Base (Derived above)
SSB (SSJ + 100% God ki) = 10x SSG (Derived above)
CSSB = 20x SSB (AKA. Completed Super Saiyan Blue. Equivalent to Kaioken x20 and SSBE in the anime)
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1028025720751017984 - Quote from the director of Episode 131, Megumi Ishitani confirming it is equal.

SSJ (+10% God Ki) = SSG (What Goku used against Beerus in space. Anime only.)
Base (+10% God Ki) = SSG/10 (AKA Saiyan Beyond God. What Goku uses against Freeza in RoF.)

Ultra Instinct = 8 trillion or 8 x 10^12 x Base

BSSJ (Berserk SSJ) = 1000x SSJ (Similar to USSJ, but no speed drop and more power than SSJ3. Multiplier is still less than SSG. Only applies to Legendary Saiyans like Kale and Broly.)

-----------------GT---------------------
Super Oozaru = 50x Oozaru = 500x Base
SSJ4 = 8x Super Oozaru = 4000x Base (Condensed Golden Oozaru, 10x SSJ3)
Full-Powered SSJ4 = 10x SSJ4 (After absorbing energies of SSJ Goten, SSJ Trunks, Pan, and SSJ Gohan)

We've seen different grades of SSJ2 as well. We saw that Future Trunks in SSJ2 was able to fight on par with SSJ3 Goku and saw that Vegeta in SSJ2 after Bulma got slapped by Beerus was greater than SSJ3 Goku. This means that it is possible for characters to gain mastery over a transformation to reach higher grades. Characters like Vegeta and Trunks who never achieved SSJ3, trained more in their SSJ2 form and hence, is at a higher grade. The goal of any form is to have maximal power output without stamina drain.

In addition, in Super, we did not see ASSJ or FPSSJ from Caulifla or Cabba with Caulifa skipping directly to SSJ2. USSJ still exists as a distinct transformation however since we have seen both Future Trunks and Caulifla perform it. In addition, FPSSJ is a combination of good ki control and maintaining the SSJ state longer to consume less stamina. It is akin to the Completed SSB state or CSSB.

Ultra Instinct

Read here for the theory on ultra instinct: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=40707

MUI = 8E12 or 8 trillion x Base (See excel spreadsheet below for calculations.)

Cell Saga
To start, we need a reference point. The last known power level that was high is SSJ Goku from Namek, 150 million. Android 17 and 18 surpass this, but by how much? Piccolo after absorbing Kami was essentially equal to Android 17 and Shin was above Piccolo. In addition, Imperfect Cell’s first encounter with Piccolo (Kami absorbed), was weaker but after absorbing at least 600,000 humans, Imperfect Cell was easily able to overpower both Android 17 and Piccolo, but not 16. Furthermore, SSJ Future Trunks was easily able to kill Freeza and Cold, implying he's stronger than 150 million. SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Goku post-Namek are also stronger. Then there was a 3-year timeskip to prepare for the Androids which means that they got stronger. Then there was ROSAT which made them immensely strong. I'll try to separate these boosts.

2 years Post-Namek
1. SSJ Goku (strongest) - still stronger than Future Trunks.
2. SSJ Future Trunks
3. Kooler = 4x Freeza
4. Cyborg Freeza
5. King Cold (weakest) - Daizenshuu 7 states that Cold’s power is “slightly behind” Freeza’s. Akira Toriyama further states that only Cold and Freeza were the two of their race with abnormal power.


3 years after Future Trunks first arrival
1. Android 16 (strongest)
2. Imperfect Cell (humans absorbed)
3. Android 17 = Piccolo (Kami absorbed)
4. Android 18
5. SSJ Goku
6. SSJ Vegeta
7. SSJ Future Trunks
8. Piccolo (w/o Kami)
9. Android 20 (Dr. Gero)
10. Android 19 (weakest)


Not that it matters much since it's not canon, but if you care about Movie 7, then, those androids would be all weaker than 16, 17, and 18, but stronger than 19 and 20. As soon as Vegeta, Trunks, and Goku turned SSJ, they were easily able to overpower them except for Super 13.

1. Super 13 = Android 13+14+15
2. Android 16
3. Android 17
4. Android 18
5. Android 13
6. Android 15
7. Android 14
8. Android 20
9. Android 19

Now, if we assume that absorption is addition, then each time Imperfect Cell absorbed an android, his power level was increased by the power level of that android:

1. USSJ Trunks = 10x SSJ Trunks (speed is drastically reduced. Note that Perfect Cell, Goku, and Vegeta can do USSJ)
2. Perfect Cell
4. ASSJ Vegeta = 1.3x SSJ Vegeta
5. ASSJ Trunks = 1.3x SSJ Trunks
6. Semi-Perfect Cell = Imperfect Cell + Android 17
7. Android 16

Cell Games (post-ROSAT)
1. Perfect Cell (strongest)
2. FPSSJ Gohan
3. FPSSJ Goku
4. SSJ Vegeta
5. SSJ Trunks
6. Piccolo
7. Tenshinhan
8. Krillin
9. Yamcha (weakest)

Goku and Gohan spent 21 hours in the ROSAT after which they learned to control SSJ completely, reaching Fully-Powered SSJ (FPSSJ), allowing them to be relaxed but in SSJ and doing things like taking a bath. Gohan surpassed Goku during this time. Vegeta and Trunks trained more in the ROSAT while Goku and Gohan decided to chill for the next 9 days. This is all based on educated guesses and has largely due to Kooler’s power level which was given in V-Jump 2004 but:

1. Super Perfect Cell = 2x Perfect Cell
2. SSJ2 Gohan = 2x FPSSJ Gohan

Note that Perfect Cell > SSJ Gohan at the start. However, what doesn’t make sense is that if Perfect Cell is > SSJ Gohan, then when Perfect Cell regenerated himself into Super Perfect Cell, he had the aura of an SSJ2. Super Perfect Cell also reached a new transformation and a zenkai. Therefore, his power level should have also doubled, making Super Perfect Cell > SSJ2 Gohan. Not only that, but Gohan himself stated that he lost half his ki protecting Vegeta, losing 1 arm. We all know that Super Perfect Cell lost to a 1-handed SSJ2 Gohan. So how? Yes, Vegeta did distract him for that small window of opportunity for Gohan to go all out, but was that really it?

Spoiler

Initially, I never really credited Vegeta for that distraction because Vegeta was the reason that Gohan lost half his power in the first place. If Gohan didn’t need to protect Vegeta, then he would have both his hands to do a Kamehameha as well as all his power. However, I think if it wasn’t for Vegeta, Gohan even at full power may have not been able to win in that Kamehameha struggle. Cell stated that he had gathered enough energy to take out the entire solar system. Logically, Super Perfect Cell, should have been stronger than SSJ2 Gohan using the same multiplier for SSJ2. Hence, I think without that distraction, Gohan would not have won even with his full power. So thank you Vegeta!

Bojack also appeared right after the Cell saga. He was a formidable opponent that required SSJ2 Gohan to defeat. He was punched straight through the stomach by Gohan, was still standing and was able to do a ki blast. In comparison, Perfect Cell was on his knees after 1 punch from SSJ2 Gohan, so I would say that Bojack > Perfect Cell but below Super Perfect Cell.

1. Super Perfect Cell (strongest)
2. SSJ2 Gohan
3. Bojack
4. Perfect Cell
5. Dabura (weakest)

For Broly, it's easy because his power level was already released in the V-Jump 2004 and represents his power after Movie 8. In Movie 8, he got a zenkai boost and was able to fight SSJ2 Adult Gohan < SSJ2 Teen Gohan.

1. LSSJ Broly (Movie 10) (strongest)
2. LSSJ Broly (Movie 8)
3. SSJ2 Teen Gohan
4. SSJ2 Adult Gohan (weakest)

Hatchiyack was also in another movie. Goku stated that his power level exceeded that of even Broly (1.4 billion). Depending on the ending, Hatchiyack was defeated in different ways, but seeing that he was still in the Cell Saga, he was nowhere near Buu level.

1. Hatchiyack
2. LSSJ Broly (Movie 10)
3. LSSJ Broly (Movie 8)
4. Perfect Cell

Buu saga
To start off, we need a reference point. In a V-Jump 2004, the power level of SSJ Gogeta was given to be 2.5 billion or 2.5 x 109. In the same magazine, Kooler is 470 million and Broly is 1.4 billion. I won’t calculate the log scales for the Buu saga because anything the characters Pre-Super are so weak that you will get a negative log scale value.

Spoiler

Sources: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/guides/battle ... png?x64626
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/guides/battle ... png?x64626

These posters don't make sense. Why? One of the reasons this doesn’t make sense is because SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta surpassed SSJ2 Teen Gohan from the Cell Saga. If in the same magazine, Kooler is 470 million or 4x stronger than Freeza. Since we know that SSJ Goku beat Kooler in his 5th form, it means that he had to have a power level > 470 million in SSJ1 and that's BEFORE ROSAT. Dealing with power levels in general does not lead anywhere. Instead it is better to use logic to compare. SSJ Gogeta's power level is too small given the Fusion Dance formula we derived above. If if you use A+B as the fusion formula, it's still not high enough.

This is why manga, Daizenshuus, and Toriyama’s words are more accurate than promotional posters for a video game and movies. In addition, Broly was 1.4 billion (post Movie 10). When Broly came back, he had a zenkai boost, making him above SSJ2 level. The reason Adult Gohan wasn’t shown to use SSJ2 in Movie 10 was due to animation error that forgot the electricity. Adult Gohan was already shown to reach SSJ2 in the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai against Kibito. Still don’t believe me? Then read the discussion where Kanzenshuu staff say the same thing: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16424

Next up is Gotenks who has always been compared in his SSJ3 state versus Goku. The fact is that Goku himself stated in Chapter 510 stating that he could have beaten Fat Buu if he wanted but wanted to give the kids a chance. In addition, when Gotenks turns SSJ, Piccolo says that his might be enough to defeat Fat Buu. Goku never expected Gotenks to reach SSJ3. He felt that SSJ Gotenks would have been enough to beat Fat Buu. Therefore,

1. SSJ Vegito
2. Buuhan (Ultimate Buu)
3. Vegito Base
4. Buutenks
5. Ultimate Gohan
6. SSJ Gogeta
7. SSJ3 Gotenks = 4x SSJ2 Gotenks
8. Super Buu
9. SSJ2 Gotenks = 2x SSJ Gotenks
10. SSJ Gotenks = 50x Gotenks
11. SSJ3 Goku
12. Kid Buu
13. Evil Buu
14. Fat Buu

Spoiler

Calculating the power of an average Kaioshin:

In Dragon Ball Z, Episode 219, Chapter 444, Shin states that a long time ago, when there were 5 Kaioshins, each one could take out Freeza with a single blow.

Spoiler

The subbed anime and manga both state this while the dubbed anime states that each Kaioshin was 1000x stronger than Freeza. We will not use the dub since that is not the original translation. The 1000x also would not compute correct results as it would put Shin at 120 billion (1000x Freeza’s maximum). In addition, Daizenshuu 7 states that Shin possesses strength far exceeding of Super Namekian Piccolo (Buu saga post-Kami). This would put Shin at a higher level than Freeza or SSJ1 Goku during the Namek saga. Piccolo was even scared to face Shin in the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai and forfeited, not only because Shin is a god but because he is far stronger. The line in the DBS anime where Beerus couldn’t believe that Goku defeated Freeza in his current SSJ state is not in the manga btw. Furthermore, the system of kili was introduced in the Buu saga. Dabura said that he is above 4000 kili. According to the 2004 V-Jump, 1 kili=50,000 BP which places Dabura > 4000x50,000 or > 200 million. However, this conversion of kili into BP is not reliable at all. It makes SSJ Goku (3000 kili) only 150 million which is the power level he had on Namek but it can be argued that he held back significantly against Yakon. In addition, Dabura said that 200-300 kili is enough to destroy a planet or two. Freeza first form (530,000) during Namek saga destroyed Planet Vegeta with his finger and his kili is 10.6. Also, the filler episodes where Vegeta and Nappa destroyed planets doesn’t count. It can be argued that what Dabura meant was 200-300 is enough to destroy multiple planet. Remember that this means Dabura is stronger than 200 million not equal to. This places Shin above SSJ1 Goku (Namek), Android 17, and Piccolo but weaker than Dabura or Perfect Cell near Android 16 level.

1. SSJ Goku
2. SSJ Vegeta
3. Dabura
4. SSJ Gohan
5. Shin (East Kaioshin)
6. Piccolo
7. Kibito

Obviously, Zamasu is an exception to this as he was noted to be the strongest Kaio (wasn’t officially a Kaioshin) in all 12 universes, rivaling a SSJ2 Goku. At the same time, Shin (East Kaioshin), was known to be the weakest Kaioshin in Universe 7. The South Kaioshin, who was absorbed by Kid Buu, was the strongest. Kibito also fought Zamasu and lost, so he’s weaker than SSJ2 level, but was stated in the Daizenshuu that he would have been able to fight SSJ Gohan, making him stronger than an average SSJ. At the same time, Kibito could not even lift the Z-sword while SSJ Gohan can, but I did say average SSJ and Gohan isn’t average.

Spoiler

Movie 12 introduced us to Janenba which took a SSJ Gogeta to finish off. This was around the time of the Buu saga. Janenba's second form was clearly above SSJ3 Goku (4.8 billion). While the VJump 2004 poster said that SSJ Gogeta was only 2.5 billion, above calculations show otherwise. So I would put Janenba near Super Buu level.

1. SSJ Gogeta
2. Super Buu
3. Janenba
4. SSJ3 Goku
5. Hirudegarn

To calculate Ultimate Gohan’s power level in the Buu saga, we need to back calculate. The ritual that Elder Kai uses brings out all the latent potential in a fighter without having to physically train. We know that Gohan has been slacking off since beating Cell for 7 years. Even after training with the heavy Z-sword, his base would not rise so fast to par with Goku and Vegeta. However, Ultimate Gohan is far above Super Buu and we know from Super, that Ultimate is a transformation from base, implying that base and Ultimate are still distinct. That is, he is not in Ultimate state always.

Calculating Buu’s power level is much more difficult since there are so many different versions of him. We can say clearly however that Fat Buu is weakest of them all since he’s lost to Evil Buu and Kid Buu. Since Evil Buu defeated Fat Buu and ate him to become Super Buu, it’s safe to say that Super Buu > Fat Buu. SSJ3 Goku fought both Kid Buu and Fat Buu. In Chapter 510, Goku clearly stated that he could have defeated Fat Buu as a SSJ3. In addition, in Chapter 507, when Goku was inside Super Buu’s stomach and had removed all Super Buu’s absorptions, he stated that Super Buu was still stronger than both Goku and Vegeta and that they would get killed if they came out. That is until, they found Fat Buu and removed his attachments as well. However, in Chapter 509, Goku said that they could “take” Kid Buu and felt confident that at full power SSJ3, he could beat him by himself.

Yes, we all know the long debate between who is stronger between Kid Buu and Super Buu. The facts are that in Chapter 509, Shin states that Kid Buu is the most dangerous because he’s not inhibited by Dai Kaioshin’s kind heart. However, this doesn’t mean that Kid Buu is stronger, just pure evil and insane. He’s disinhibited which means he won’t hesitate to destroy the Earth (which he does right away). The main difference between Super Buu and Kid Buu are personalities. Super Buu has Fat Buu inside him which makes him more hesitated to kill which is why killed almost every human on Earth except Satan. At one point Kid Buu did hesitate to kill Satan, but that was because Fat Buu was still inside of him until he spit him out. In general, absorption should make Buu stronger (and it does, Buuhan and Buutenks is proof), but it was absorbing Kaioshins that made him weaker (see below from Kid Buu->Huge Buu->Fat Buu). The magic of the Kais and Majin are opposites. It is the reason why Babidi could not use the energies of Kibito or Shin to awaken Buu. It is also the reason why Vegito was able to retain all his powers even as a candy (Remember Fat Buu got turned into a cookie and did not have his powers).

Spoiler

As stated above, Goku’s ki goes down the longer he fights in SSJ3 but Kid Buu’s remains the same. Hence, it’s not just regeneration but Kid Buu clearly has more stamina than SSJ3 Goku. At one point, Goku wanted to charge to full power to see if he could beat Kid Buu but ran out of stamina again. He didn’t get his stamina back until Dende wished for it using the Dragon Balls but by then, Goku was already using the Spirit Bomb. I still think, however, that even SSJ3 Goku at full power would not have been able to beat Kid Buu. The regenerative abilities of Buu make him almost impossible to defeat. SSJ3 Goku would have the upper hand initially but then would lose stamina and the same result would occur. This is why Vegeta did not even want Gohan or Gotenks to fight Kid Buu, but went directly to the Spirit Bomb to eliminate every atom of him.

1. Buuhan
2. Buutenks
3. Super Buu
4. Kid Buu
5. Evil Buu
6. Huge Buu (South Kaioshin absorbed by Kid Buu)
7. Fat Buu (Dai Kaioshin absorbed by Huge Buu)

If you still don’t believe my reasoning, Herms98 and Geekdom101 made a video and came to the conclusion that Super Buu > Kid Buu but with Kid Buu more evil and not inhibited by the kindness of Fat Buu / Dai Kaioshin. https://youtu.be/P9qmPDrI5g4

Spoiler

Wait a minute!! Uh oh, this would make Base Vegito weaker than Ultimate Buu right? In the anime, Base Vegito was already man handling Ultimate Buu. Yes, it’s true. However, in the manga, this never happened! In fact, Vegito transformed into a SSJ in the manga immediately! Even if you go by the anime, base Vegito was thrown and smashed into some rocks after which, he transformed into a SSJ, implying that Ultimate Buu was only taken off-guard initially by base Vegito.

See below Chapter 505. Be careful, I know that the manga shows lightning around Super Vegito, but this isn’t SSJ2. Lightning does not automatically mean SSJ2. Actually, lightning for SSJ transformations is used to indicate the immense level of power. SSJ3 Goku has lightning and SSJ Vegito is above SSJ3 Goku, so it is not farfetched to see lightning for a fused character even in SSJ1.

1. SSJ Vegito
2. Buuhan
3. Base Vegito

Spoiler

------------------------------------------------------------PART 3----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Power level conversion

I have shown you guys how to derive the log scale and use it, but is there a way to convert this log scale to actual power levels? There have been no official power levels released since the end of the Freeza saga. However, the last known official power level was stated by Ryusei Nakao in an interview.

Spoiler

Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... sei-nakao/

While it has long been viewed as a joke not to be taken seriously, Nakao stated that Golden Freeza's power level was 100 quintillion. At first, this does sound like a joke, but let's revisit this. A quintillion is 10^18 and 100 quintillion is simply 10^20. A million is 10^6, billion is 10^9, and a trillion is 10^12. Given that Goku was at 150 million at the end of the Freeza saga as a SSJ, it is not farfetched to believe that with god ki, quintillions were reached. We are talking about the gods here which is on a completely different level.

Since Golden Freeza > SSB Goku, I gave him a 7.1 on the log scale. Taking the log of 10^20 gives us 20. The difference between 20-7.1=12.9. Hence, 12.9 is the scaling factor to convert the log scale into power levels based on what Nakao stated.

If we use this, we can reverse engineer:
Base Goku (Post-Zamasu) = 10^(0.8+12.9) = 10^13.7 or 56 trillion.
SSJ Goku = 50 x base = 50 x 56 trillion = 2.8 quadrillion.
SSJ2 Goku = 2 x SSJ Goku = 2 x 2.8 quadrillion = 5.6 quadrillion
SSJ3 Goku = 4 x SSJ2 Goku = 4 x 5.6 quadrillion = 22 quadrillion

Seems large doesn’t it? Remember that Goku's base on Namek was 3 million or 3 x 10^6. Since then, Goku has fought Beerus, absorbed god ki, trained with Whis, fought Zamasu, and so on. It's not farfetched to believe that his base is this high. We saw SSJ3 Gotenks fighting a clone of base Vegeta and was unable to do any damage at all. An SSJ3 is already over a billion (400x3 million=1.2 billion or 1.2 x10^9). A trillion is a million times more than a million. If Goku’s base was only 3 million during the Namek saga and is about a million times stronger, then this makes sense.

Power level = 10^(log scale+12.9) You can use the this formula to convert any log scale to power levels.


References:
1. Akira Toriyama
2. Kanzenshuu & Herms98 (translations for interviews, Daizenshuu, and gathering of information): http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... f=8&t=9633
3. Manga (DB, DBZ, DBS) - http://mangahasu.com/dragon-ball
4. GT Perfect Files
5. Daizenshuu
6. Anime (DB, DBZ, DBGT, DBS)
7. Hyourinjutsu and ygoofficial for sprites for transformation chart

[/spoiler]

Source : http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=40610

[Ganjalo]

Pendant ce temps chez Toriyama

[Supaman]

Ganjalo,
tu as fait ma journée.

Dany,
Ce que je trouve assez drôle, c’est que ce tableau retombe grosso modo à mon classement.
Whis 15
Beerus 10

Goku SSJG 6
Goku SSJ3 3

[Son Goku]

Le pire c'est que y'a de grandes chances que Toriyama tire réellement cette tête en voyant ça ! Lui qui est avant tout un mangaka à tendance humour pipi-caca n'est surement pas allé aussi loin dans le délire des puissances chiffrées ! Ce n'est clairement pas son trip !
Aaaaah, la communauté DB peut parfois offrir de ces perles que je regrette pas de toujours m’intéresser à la franchise malgré toutes ces longues années passées !

[XXI]

(...)

Wow...
Alors perso, je n'ai pas envie de me moquer, il ou elle reste un.e fan passionné.e qui a dû investir des heures de son temps pour mener à bien ses recherches, mais pour moi, ça va vraiment trop trop loin dans le calcul. C'est chaud d'avoir ne serait-ce que l'idée d'aller jusque-là. Je dois bien reconnaître que je n'ai pas lu jusqu'à la fin. Mais je peux vous dire qu'il y a certains rapports de force sur lesquels, sans même parler des chiffres, je ne suis pas d'accord.

[Kurama_Senju]

Après, ce n'est pas absurde de "traduire" le feeling de l'auteur en calculs. Ça peut être ludique, et chacun sa lecture de l'oeuvre.
Et puis, de base, suivre une série n'est pas plus utile que de se creuser la tête en calculs dessus. Bref, je trouve ça cool toute sa démonstration.

Pour revenir au fond, je n'ai pas tout lu mais je ne suis pas d'accord sur de nombreux points.

Déjà, pour moi, y'a pas de progression dans DBS-manga à transfo égale.
Genre, si on dit que Gokû base fin DBZ est à 54.000.000, alors Gokû base DBS le serait aussi à mon sens. La comparaison durant l'arc Black entre Trunks SSJ2 (quand il rivalise avec Gokû SSJ2) avec le Gohan SSJ2 qu'a connu Trunks (celui de la période Cell donc) est clairement du même genre que celle de Majin Vegeta SSJ2. Et le fait qu'il soit précisé, durant ce même arc, que Gokû et Vegeta ont grosso modo atteint leurs limites, va encore une fois dans ce sens.

Bref, symboliquement, j'ai tendance à penser que Gokû, une fois maîtrisé le SSJ3, avait atteint sa limite. Et Vegeta l'a rattrapé entre DBZ et DBS.

D'où l'intérêt de tout le truc divin, par le SSJG d'abord, puis le power-up (SSJB), sa maîtrise (MSSJB) et enfin l'accomplissement martial du système corps-esprit divin (Ultra Instinct).

L'idée de logarithmes ou de puissances, j'approuve.
C'est pas pour dire que Toriyama avait sorti sa calculette. Mais c'est juste une façon de poser des chiffres cohérents sur un feeling.

Ceci dit, dans sa version, le niveau de Vegetto est trop abusé je trouve.
Concernant les fusions, j'ai vraiment l'impression que les mulitiplicateurs de puissance sont réduits.
Genre Gotenks, son niveau SSJ3, je doute qu'il soit à des années-lumières de Gokû SSJ3. Et pour autant, je pense qu'en SSJ1, il est clairement au dessus d'un Majin Vegeta SSJ2 et joue déjà dans la cour de Majin Buu.
Idem pour Vegetto. En SSJ, je le vois plus fort que Buuhan mais juste de quoi le dominer franchement, tout en restant un poil sérieux. Et sous forme de base, je pense pas qu'il soit largué par Buuhan. Même chose dans DBS, où en SSJB, il vaut plus ou moins Beerus, sans pour autant être largué par Zamasu fusionné quand il est sous forme de base.

Parce que là, dans ses calculs, Vegetto est carrément plus fort que Beerus et même Kefla est un cran au dessus. J'ai quand même du mal avec ça.
Beerus, c'est quelque chose. Que Vegetto l'égale plus ou moins, OK ; on parle de la fusion "invincible" des héros.
Que Gokû, une fois l'UI maîtrisé, dépasse Beerus, c'est un message fort d'accomplissement, c'est symbolique et c'est fort.

Mais Kefla, non, sinon, on peut ajouter Gohan, et du coup C-17 s'il est aussi fort, et Trunks, donc Zamasu, etc.

Perso, le gros point de gêne pour moi est l'époque Saiyans/Namek, avec le Kaioken qui est trop abusé. On part d'un Kaioken 2, puis 3, puis 4, puis 10, puis 20... OK, on parle de fatigue, mais c'est pas net, on voit pas de limite au truc, et ça donne un Freezer et un SSJ complètement abusés en comparaison de cette technique qui, pourtant, devait être déjà complètement cheatée.

J'aime bien la vision d'Antarka concernant les pouvoirs max. de Freezer et Gokû SSJ période Namek. Taper dans les 5-10 millions pour Freezer rend le truc complètement extrême, avec un rapport de force avec sa forme initiale très élevé. 120.000.000 et 150.000.000, pour moi ce sont des chiffres inutilement trop élevés en fait.
Pour Piccolo, 5.000 je trouve ça crédible par rapport au bref entraînement Kaiô, même si d'un autre côté, j'ai du mal avec l'idée que Krilin pourrait one-shot Piccolo. Enfin, là, c'est difficile d'avoir un truc parfait.

En fait, la période Namek est la plus délicate à chiffrer je trouve, plus que Cell et Buu.

Du coup, par défaut, je reste sur le "classique" 3.000.000 et 150.000.000 pour Gokû période Namek, parce que y'a pas de solution parfaite.
Et pour le reste, je garde les mulitiplicateurs pseudo-officiels du SSJ2 et du SSJ3, avec une augmentation de puissance rapide avec la SET, puis plus grand chose entre Cell et Buu, avec un Gokû passant d'un niveau pas ridicule à côté de Perfect Cell à un niveau sans doute supérieur mais pas à des année-lumières non plus. Après Buu, je ne vois plus que des boost liés aux transformations divines, puis à leur maîtrise.

Je pense que cette limite du niveau de base de Gokû est symboliquement nettement inférieure à celle d'un Freezer max. comme supposé dans DBS, et même d'un Freezer 70% (sa forme la plus maîtrisée je crois). Donc pour 120.000.000, ça donnerait un Gokû base inférieur à 84.000.000.

[Antarka]

Pour le niveau de Piccolo en arrivant sur Namek.

Franchement, il s'est entrainé une semaine. Et encore, on a pas vu l'entrainement. S'il dépasse Nail avec ça, non seulement c'est nawak, mais ça valide quelque part le filler ou Yamcha & co arrivent à battre le Commando Ginue (pareil, au bout d'une semaine d'entrainement). Y'a pas d'raison hein.

Du coup, Krilin alors même qu'il a eu son potentiel juste revelé serait quand même le plus faible des terriens ? Parce que Krilin Vs Reacum on a vu ce que ça donnait.

[Bushido]

Juste après, il gère Ginyu à 20 000 unités

Et encore après, il arrive à échapper un peu à Freezer

La révélation de potentielle est pas instant, ça prend peut-être du temps à se développer

[Lenidem]

Pour le niveau de Piccolo en arrivant sur Namek.

Franchement, il s'est entrainé une semaine. Et encore, on a pas vu l'entrainement. S'il dépasse Nail avec ça, non seulement c'est nawak, mais ça valide quelque part le filler ou Yamcha & co arrivent à battre le Commando Ginue (pareil, au bout d'une semaine d'entrainement). Y'a pas d'raison hein.

Du coup, Krilin alors même qu'il a eu son potentiel juste revelé serait quand même le plus faible des terriens ? Parce que Krilin Vs Reacum on a vu ce que ça donnait.

Ben pas forcément, les terriens peuvent avoir atteint plus ou moins le même niveau que Krilin au potentiel révélé, 10 000-20 000 à la grosse louche.

Et donc, Piccolo qui passe de Nappa à Nail en une semaine, ça passe moins bien que Piccolo qui passe de Freezer deuxième forme à super saiyen en trois ans ? Alors que les super sayiens étaient déjà beaucoup plus forts que lui en normal ? Pour moi, c'est exactement du même registre. Je rappelle qu'en trois jours chez Karin, Gokû passe de "ma plus puissante attaque a pour seul effet d'abîmer les vêtements de mon ennemi et je ne dois ma survie qu'à un deux ex machina" à "comment il est trop nul, ce con de Taopaïpaï".

[XXI]

Pour le niveau de Piccolo en arrivant sur Namek.

Franchement, il s'est entrainé une semaine. Et encore, on a pas vu l'entrainement. S'il dépasse Nail avec ça, non seulement c'est nawak, mais ça valide quelque part le filler ou Yamcha & co arrivent à battre le Commando Ginue (pareil, au bout d'une semaine d'entrainement). Y'a pas d'raison hein.

Du coup, Krilin alors même qu'il a eu son potentiel juste revelé serait quand même le plus faible des terriens ? Parce que Krilin Vs Reacum on a vu ce que ça donnait.

Ben pas forcément, les terriens peuvent avoir atteint plus ou moins le même niveau que Krilin au potentiel révélé, 10 000-20 000 à la grosse louche.

Et donc, Piccolo qui passe de Nappa à Nail en une semaine, ça passe moins bien que Piccolo qui passe de Freezer deuxième forme à super saiyen en trois ans ? Alors que les super sayiens étaient déjà beaucoup plus forts que lui en normal ? Pour moi, c'est exactement du même registre. Je rappelle qu'en trois jours chez Karin, Gokû passe de "ma plus puissante attaque a pour seul effet d'abîmer les vêtements de mon ennemi et je ne dois ma survie qu'à un deux ex machina" à "comment il est trop nul, ce con de Taopaïpaï".

Je suis d'accord, et, d'une manière générale, je ne m'oblige pas à limiter les persos sous prétexte que leurs progressions nous paraissent absurdes, car, comme vous le dites, il y en a tellement dans Dragon Ball.
En plus de vos exemples, on pourrait citer Gohan, dans la salle de l'esprit et du temps : il partait de beaucoup plus bas (et c'est un euphémisme) que Végéta, et a fini tellement plus haut (et tout cela en deux fois moins d'entraînement !) Là aussi, ça paraît dingue, et pourtant...

Il ne faut pas oublier non plus que, si l'on constate des progressions abusées, d'autres s'avèrent décevantes. On peut s'interroger sur le fruit de l'entraînement de Gokû chez Dieu. Juste avant de le commencer, Gokû était capable de one shot un mec (Drum) qui surclassait Tenshinhan, et trois ans plus tard, je n'ai pas l'impression que l'écart se soit spécialement creusé. A la limite, on dirait presque qu'il s'est légèrement résorbé, d'après ce que nous montre leur combat (mais Gokû reste largement supérieur et gagne à tous les coups sans utiliser son niveau maximum). Alors qu'avec l'entraînement de Dieu (!), il aurait dû prendre le large. Beaucoup plus.
Surtout quand on voit les progrès des terriens dans les mêmes conditions, et en trois fois moins de temps...

Après, ce n'est pas absurde de "traduire" le feeling de l'auteur en calculs. Ça peut être ludique, et chacun sa lecture de l'oeuvre.
Et puis, de base, suivre une série n'est pas plus utile que de se creuser la tête en calculs dessus. Bref, je trouve ça cool toute sa démonstration.

Oui, encore une fois, je ne veux pas être trop dure envers des gens passionnés (si on occulte le fait que ça ne me viendrait pas à l'idée de faire ces calculs, trop la flemme ), et j'espère que mon message n'est pas pris comme ça.
C'est juste que si on a pour objectif de coller au plus près de la logique de Toriyama, je ne pense pas qu'on pourra le faire avec des calculs aussi compliqués.
Une fois que j'ai dit ça, bravo quand même à la personne qui a fourni ce travail : ça mérite un minimum de respect.

[RMR]

Moi, je vais plutôt abonder dans le sens d'Antarka. Certes, nombres de progressions dans le manga sont pétées, et on les accepte parce qu'elle sont factuelles, y a pas d'os, c'est là, sous nos yeux. Mais pour Piccolo qui arrive sur Namekku pour directement recevoir un gain de puissance dont le montant est totalement libre, à quoi bon imaginer qu'il a augmenté auparavant sa puissance de façon drastique en méditant une semaine chez Kaiô et ses pauvres 10G ? Pas que le manga ne soit pas capable de nous raconter ce genre de chose, mais puisqu'on peut s'en passer ici...

Oui, les compliments de Nail, mais moi, je préfère mettre ça sur le compte de "le fils de Katatsu, le génie, la famille du dragon, comment c'est trop de la balle, il vaut mieux mettre ton potentiel à profit... et je suis à moitié mort, aussi, et tu es trop fier pour t'effacer à mon profit, déjà que ça t'emmerde que je m'immisce en toi".