Film Dragon Ball 2013 "Battle of Gods"

[en passant]

Bof , tous les films ont eu prétention à être canon.

Non , en fait aucun n'a eu la prétention à l'être , plutôt .
C'est un peu un accord tacite entre la compagnie et les spectateurs. On sait à peu près quand ça ce passe , on sait que Toriyama à donné son accord ici ou là ou bien a été impliqué un peu plus profondément mais personne de sensé n'ira dire que ça fait partie intégrante du manga.
Surtout vu les pertes récurrentes de mémoire de Toriyama lui même à propos de DBZ.
Et surtout quand il y a des contradictions qui apparaissent avec la BD.


À part peut-être pour Bardock et Trunks et encore...

Par ex:
On peut concevoir que Freezer a un Frère mais il ne faudra jamais en parler serieusement en parlant du manga par la suite.

Salagir parle de Multivers , non ?
Ben c'est un peu pareil.

Les films c'est un Univers à part.

Battle of Gods aussi .
Surtout que une partie de l'intérêt que Goku porte à Uub dans le manga a été balayée par la nouvelle transformation et cette nouvelle puissance.

[Dragon-Z]

Je suis d'accord avec Dr_Leon_Soldier et en passant: Les films obéissent à leurs propres règles, avec des mises en scènes bien spécifiques qui ne peuvent être considérer comme Canon, au même titre que les 42 tomes. Il y a en effet, juste les films sur Bardock [le 1er] et sur Trunks qui "pourrait" être considérer comme Canon car on les évoques clairement (avec des illustrations) dans le manga.

Je vois ça comme ça: Dragon Ball, c'est une aventure qui se prolonge sur 42 tomes qui a, grâce à son succès, donné suite à pleins de produits dérivés: Dessin animé, Jeux Vidéo, Films, OAV, Dico, jouets, cartes, figurines, etc..

[Son Goku]

Mais personne n'a dit que le film était Canon -.- Je ne le considère pas canon car en effet, on peut pas démêler les idées propres de Toriyama et celles des autres scénaristes ! Néanmoins, Toriyama y a participé et y a mis sa touche personnelle ! Et c'est précisément pour ça que ce film ne peut être comparé aux productions pour lesquelles Toriyama n'a pas eu son mot à dire !

Je le répète pour la énième fois, LE FILM EN LUI MÊME N'EST PAS CANON MANGA car il ne se revendique pas comme tel, mais les IDÉES de Toriyama elles sont canons que vous le vouliez ou pas ! C'est son univers, c'est son œuvre, c'est son manga, qui sommes nous pour décider que les idées de l'auteur même du manga ne sont pas valables ?
Non mais honnêtement, je vois pas comment ni pourquoi on peut contester ça !

[Teen_Gohan_757]

Le tout est de savoir quelles sont les idées de Toriyama et quelles sont les idées des autres scénaristes

[Son Goku]

On s'en fout au fond parce que on le saura probablement jamais ! Le tout est d'envisager toutes les possibilités et ne pas tout rejeter en bloc, comme je l'ai dit dans mon autre message ! En gros, faire preuve de mesure et de sagacité de jugement !

[Super Green Ranger]

On retrouve aussi beaucoup d'éléments scénaristiques semblables au manga dans les films, réinsérés pour l'occasion avec de nouveaux méchants. Je pense que c'est ça souvent le rôle des films. Condenser les moments fort du manga (parfois de manière caricaturale) dans une nouvelle histoire pour le présenter à un public plus vaste sur un média différent.

Cependant, BoG se démarque ici des autres films. Il pourrait s'insérer dans la trame du manga, malgré quelque incohérences, mais c'est plus dû à des oublis qu'autre chose. En plus il innove totalement par rapport à la trame du manga, dans le sens où ce n'est pas une reprise des moments forts, un retour au passé. Je pense que c'est dans cet esprit là qu'aurait continué Toriyama de nos jours le manga... si son éditeur ne serait pas intervenu... D'une certaine manière, les informations contenues dans ce film sont loin d'être négligeables et ne peuvent être relayées au même titre que ce qu'on a pu voir dans les autres films.

[Teen_Gohan_757]

On s'en fout au fond parce que on le saura probablement jamais ! Le tout est d'envisager toutes les possibilités et ne pas tout rejeter en bloc, comme je l'ai dit dans mon autre message ! En gros, faire preuve de mesure et de sagacité de jugement !

En effet, je suis d'accord sur ce point !

(et puis bon, moi et la canonicité, on a jamais été copain )

[Super Green Ranger]

Autre chose. Personne n'a révélé cette petite contradiction.

Spoiler

Dans le film, il est dit que Bills a détruit la planète Kaio après avoir joué à cache-cache. Dans la réédition du manga Dragon Ball en Full Color au Japon, il est dit qu'il l'a fait après avoir perdu à un jeu vidéo de course...

[Son Goku]

Encore que si Toriyama avait dit textuellement que l'histoire du film ne s’intègre pas au manga que c'était juste une petit délire qu'il a imaginé avec la Toei, ce rejet total de son contenu serait tout à fait légitime !
Mais là comme l’explique SGR, on voit qu'il peut s'insérer sans trop de soucis dans le manga malgré quelques coquilles, et y a bien une certaine volonté de Toriyama de donner une continuité à son manga à travers ce film ( cela transparait clairement dans son interview)...

Bref, j'ai beau chercher, je ne trouve rien de valable qui donnerait raison à ceux qui le congédient complètement !

@SGR

Spoiler

L'épisode de la destruction de la planète de Kaio par Bills est mentionné dans une nouvelle édition de manga ?
Pourrais-tu nous donner plus de précisions ?

[Super Green Ranger]

Son Goku >

Spoiler

Non, cette info n'est pas insérée directement dans le manga (c'est-à-dire dans les bulles) mais dans une partie du livre où Toriyama répond à des questions par rapport au manga. Cependant, à côté des réponses de Toriyama, le livre reprenait aussi des éléments du Daizenshuu comme les unités de puissances, pour répondre à d'autres questions.

[Teen_Gohan_757]

@ Otosan : Perso ce que je trouve un peu incohérent c'est

Spoiler

l'apparence de Goten et Trunks qui ont l'air d'avoir encore 7 et 8 ans alors que Videl est déjà enceinte de Pan. Donc ca devrait se passer genre 5/6 ans plus tard que la défaite de Buu et donc que les gamins devrait avoir 12/13 ans

Mais bon, je l'avoue, c'est un peu faible pour rejeter en bloc le film

[Super Green Ranger]

Pour ceux qui veulent vraiment connaître l'implication de Toriyama dans le scénario, lisez-ceci (en anglais malheureusement) C'est tiré de l'édition Full Color aussi. Passionnant...

Spoiler

Top-Secret Stories of the Script!

How did you end up writing the story?
When I went to Tokyo, all of a sudden Torishima-san1 told me, “Read this script2. We want to make a movie out of it.” (laughs) When I read it, I thought it might be a bit too complex for kids, and that the story was a bit too serious. For the dialogue as well, there were turns of phrase that only the creator would know, so I sent in a revision, [saying] “How about something like this?” Later, I took a look at the revised script, and as I looked at the dialogue and other parts that bothered me, [it dawned on me that] I had written the entire story without realizing it. (laughs) I felt that the part of a god appearing was the main point of this movie, so I left it in, but the rest had become the story I came up with myself. (laughs wryly)

What did you take care with in making the scenario?
To be frank, it was “not to make people emotional”. It’s just like me to have it come down entirely on the side of pure entertainment. To the point that, since way back, I’ve deliberately drawn it so as not to move people. This time, as well, with Vegeta’s nice scene, I almost wanted to generate some emotion, but I changed it into a lighter direction. Probably, it’s because it’s embarrassing3. The fact that I stake my life on stupid gags in breaks from the action, like “I’m gonna pee myself!”, is also because if I make it serious, I get embarrassed. (laughs)

I was also conscious of allowing people having their first contact with Dragon Ball to understand it without any difficulty. I was cautious not to make it impenetrable to outsiders, but it was hard. The movie’s running-time is limited, so it became a story that assumes a certain degree of knowledge about the work. For someone like me, who’s aiming for something even elementary schoolers will understand, it might be something to reflect on a bit.

I also struggled with the enemy’s background. There are stories where “a good person, through a certain catalyst, gains an evil heart and becomes an enemy”. But if they were originally a good person, even if you fight them and win, there’s no clear sense of resolution. It’s specifically because they were bad from the start that they’re worth defeating. This time, too, I struggled to come up with a way to end things cleanly after fighting against such an incredibly strong opponent as a God of Destruction.

What did you notice in writing the scenario?

The fact that it’s easier to write a work that’s not new, where you know the characters and the world. Although, since I’m the type of person who doesn’t re-read his own work, I had completely forgotten the story. I read a bit of it over again, and I was able to recall the feeling of back when I drew it. (laughs) A manga artist has it easy when he already knows, “This character moves like this”.

This was the first time since putting out the Kanzenban4 that I had properly read through the manga I had drawn. I couldn’t remember the next developments, so as I was reading it, I fretted, “Am I gonna be OK, expanding the story this much?” (laughs) But if I don’t forget what I’ve drawn, the next idea won’t come to me. Perhaps my memory’s capacity is less than other people’s? (laughs)

Character Production Secrets

Tell us a behind-the-scenes story about the characters who appear!
In the initial script, three burglars appear. But since Dragon Ball‘s characters are all appearing together, I thought it would be better if it were a group of three that everyone knew, so I made the Pilaf gang appear. They ought to be getting pretty old, so I wondered what I should do. Then it came to me that, if I made them younger with the Dragon Balls, it would be just right.

The subplot where Trunks comes to like Mai is of a pattern that I rarely ever draw5, “starting to like a girl a little bit”. I thought, [if I'd left it] the way it was, they would simply have been sneak-thieves, and it would have ended with them being immediately driven off, so I put it in. (laughs)

Also, it’s not that Bulma’s birthday party is held every year. Bulma’s the type of person who doesn’t care about her own birthday, so she holds one when she wants to see everyone again after a long time. If she doesn’t prepare fantastic prizes, everyone won’t get together, so she goes all-out. (laughs)

Do you decide firmly on the settings when you create a story?
If it’s not logical in my mind, then it feels bad when I’m drawing it. Even if it’s something that’s not explained within the work, I try to come up with unwritten rules to tie everything together. Well, I don’t take notes, though, so I immediately forget about them. (laughs) I have confidence in keeping things consistent, too. (laughs) This time, as well, I prepared settings for the end that make you anticipate something after. It’s actually something I came up with by chance, but it also brings the characters to life, so I’m glad I went with that setting.

Tell us some points about the designs of Beerus, God of Destruction, and Whis!
I had used up human forms, so for Beerus6, I thought I’d rather make him cat-like. Speaking of cats, there’s Egypt, so I decided on his costume from there. I prefer to have strong characters who don’t look strong at first glance. Simple, by contrast, brings out the fear of their unfathomable true nature better than being too showy. I also like how it’s ominous.

Whis7 is a character I came up with, figuring as you might expect, that I needed to bring out a handsome fella, as well. (laughs) I like his air of obliviousness. He’s constantly eating delicious things, and he lacks a sense of imminent danger to the point that I wondered whether it was really OK. (laughs)

I came up with both of them from the start. If there’s only one [character], you have to either have them talk to themselves or use narration, but if you have two, you can explain things through their conversational interaction, no narration necessary. So, in manga as well, I try to bring them out in pairs8. Even Goku is someone who wouldn’t say anything if Bulma & co. weren’t around. (laughs)

Toriyama-sensei‘s preoccupations

Have Goku & co. changed from before?
Goku absolutely never changes. Now, as before, he’s someone who only thinks about getting stronger. I think the other characters probably haven’t changed that much, either?

What has changed is probably just appearances; hair colors and whatnot. I’m not particular with hair styles and colors, and paint them in however’s convenient at that time9. Everyone normally changes things like hairstyles, right? It’s the same as that. So, I can’t remember the characters’ hair colors, either. (laughs) I am extremely particular about the parts I’m particular about, but the parts I’m not particular about, I’m not particular about at all.
Did you decide on the movie’s sub-title, Sensei?
I did. Gods and aliens are a staple of mine10, after all. (laughs) But, the title being the title, I was careful not to make it philosophical. So I had him do some un-god-like things, such as being obsessed with food. As a rule, I love dumb things like that.

I’m also responsible for setting the timeframe after the Majin Buu arc. I thought a time where the whole cast is together, and Goku & co. are at nearly perfect strength, would be best. That’s where an incredibly strong foe appears.

What is the theme of this movie?
As a rule, there is no such thing as a theme in my work. I want to make it exclusively a piece of “entertainment” that’s easy to understand for anyone who watches. There are a lot of other manga written in a complex style, so I suppose I’d like all the more for it to be pure entertainment. However, it’s wrong to be drawing it in an overly wholesome way, as well. I believe that a manga is over if it gets too wholesome. (laughs)

Things He Learned by Writing the Story

What are your thoughts on having tried something new by making the story?
It was very interesting. More than anything, I don’t have to draw anything… I’ll just get that joke out of the way. (laughs) It’s the first movie since the live-action version, so I also wanted to really show people the aspect of, “this is Dragon Ball“. Before, I also had the serialization, so I wasn’t deeply involved with the animated works, and I left a lot of it up to [the anime staff].1 But this time, I checked over the script carefully for the first time. (laughs)

What I understood the least in being involved was how long of a script would be finished into how long of a movie.2 Writing it, I had the sense that there wasn’t enough story, and thought they would expand on it for me. But on the contrary, it had gotten so long that they had to cut it down. I wish I’d known that beforehand. But, to the extent that I think, “if there were 10 more minutes, I could have made it even more interesting~,” I also think it’s plenty interesting the way it is now!

Those who have seen the film gave me their impressions that, “Maybe it’s because you were involved, Sensei, but I thought it was a very Dragon Ball animation,” which made me happy. Everyone on the staff made [the movie] according to the scenario I wrote…but on the other hand, I also got the impression that it’s because they worked hard, saying, “this isn’t manga, so let’s do our best with it as animation!”

What sort of scenes were cut out?
Among the cut scenes, there was one scene I wrote where Goku is in a pinch, and everyone goes to help him, even though they know it’s hopeless. It goes on so that in the end, even Satan tries to help.

Satan3 is a hopeless case, but he’s a character who also feels that he wants to help in some way. I suppose this was left out for time issues. In the original story, for fun, I made Satan say lots of things like, “I have a stomachache, so I’ll protect everyone from here!” (laughs)

Surprised at the Movement! Battle Scenes

What are your thoughts on the story you made having become an anime?
With manga, from the story to the art, everything is completed by drawing it myself. Nothing appears beyond what I’ve come up with myself. But with anime, I leave it up to other people, there’s a possibility that something greater than I myself imagined will be finished up, right? That’s the most enjoyable part of it! This time in particular, the battle scenes were greater than I had imagined. They were better by far than what I’d imagined! I was most concerned with the final battle, but when I was writing the story, no real image of it came to mind. With battles, there are really parts that you don’t understand unless you draw it in pictures…so I was worried about what I should do if there was no power in the centerpiece battle. But…the power was greater than I had imagined! Just as you’d expect from animation professionals! I thought, at the very least, I myself had never seen that sort of super-showy battle scene before.

I thought that things would get out of hand if they fought right there at Capsule Corporation4, but naturally, the location changed. (laughs) To think that they’d go all the way into the stratosphereT1……but thinking about it, they’re both aliens5, after all. Maybe they can just barely breathe.

Surprised at the Movement! Characters

What were your impressions when the characters you designed this time moved?
Whis was a lot of fun to design. When he was animated, it brought out even more of an eerie and frightening feeling, so his impression changed completely. That aspect is good. I’m happest when something comes out that’s more than what I’d come up with.

But, when the original creator thinks up a certain extent of the story, the ones drawing it are under pressure. I wouldn’t like it if it were me. (laughs) Even if they thought, “I’d like to draw it a bit more freely,” they might not have been able to…. Perhaps I should have told them more strongly from the start, “You can change it however you want, based on the story”? In all the anime up to now, if I had told them that the standard-fare developments connected to the world were “something only the creator can do”, it might have made it hard to draw.

This time as well, it’s as though I’ve come to mind even less if they change the story based on my own. When there the number of people involved grows, there’s that much knowledge gathered there, after all. I’m satisfied as long as something good comes out of it.
Were you consulted at all about the characters’ designs?
Once, along the way, I had the confirmation, “When he transforms, would it be all right to make him a little slimmer?” This is true of the original manga as well, but with each successive transformation, the characters get pretty buff. So this time, I felt that I wanted to make the transformation slim. So that’s why Super Saiyan God,6, which first appears this time, has a slim design.

Feelings Towards Dragon Ball

What sort of people do you want to see Dragon Ball?

At the time of the serialization7, it was, at any rate, a boys’ magazine, so I consistently drew it with the desire for elementary- and junior-high schoolers to read it. I remember consciously making it as easy to understand as possible, and altering it when it seemed like plot developments would get difficult [to understand]. I continue to think the same way with this movie, as well.
Dragon Ball‘s world has been broadened even further with the movie. Finally, a few words!
That my own work doesn’t end with just my world, but is expanded many times larger by the efforts of other people…. That instant makes me incredibly happy! That’s why I don’t mind at all about using my own manga as the basis and tweaking lots of things. I believe there’s no problem with them making whatever, however, with Dragon Ball as the title.

Now, the world of Dragon Ball is expanding in a variety of genres, such as video games and card games8; if something interesting comes of that, then I’ll be very happy.

Source : http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations

[Son Goku]

Spoiler

Oui, je me doutais bien que ce n'était pas mentionné à travers la trame classique du manga ( je ne suis pas idiot quand même ^^)
Mais, cette info est tout de même mentionnée dans un tome relié du manga ! C'est très surprenant à moins que les autres films aient eu droit au même traitement sur certains de leurs passages !

Penses-tu qu'on puisse la considérer au même titre que les bonus de fin de chapitres ?( un peu comme les infos sur les cyborgs, ceux sur Cell, etc....) mais bon, vu que les unités de puissances du dico sont reprises également, j'imagine très bien ça n'a pas forcément parole d’Évangile

Intéressant cet interview, et comme on s'en doutait, Toriyama s'est vraiment investi dans ce film et bon nombre d’idées sont de lui... et si on se fie à la teneur de ses propos, il y a même pris beaucoup de plaisir !
Donc voilà, ça me renforce dans mon avis que ce film est bien plus qu'une production banale made by Toei !
Amusant de voir aussi que Toriyama n'est pas à l'aise lorsqu’il s'agit d'imaginer et réaliser des scènes sérieuses car "ça le gène/embarrasse" ! Drôle de situation quand on sait que c'est les sagas dites sérieuses à qui revient le plus gros du mérite dans le succès et la popularité de son manga !

[Bejita]

Quelque chose me gêne un peu dans son interview, il destine DB à des enfants, or le public de DB n'a plus 8 ans depuis longtemps.. C'est dommage de ne pas avoir pris conscience de l'évolution de son public.

Et je suis d'accord avec Kakarotto, ce sont les choses les plus sérieuses dans DB ( DBZ surtout vu qu'on pense en majorité à l'anime ) qui en font une oeuvre si géniale

[Coco89]

pour ceux qui n'ont pas compris goku s'entraine constament chez kaio on le voit meme porter le symbole de kaio sur son jogging mais après quand il met sa tenue de combat il n'y a pas le symbole de kaio dessus